Albatross Alpine or similar Sunbeam engine sport boat wanted

[Tatra Man]

Preferably complete and original but engine problems are OK as I've owned Sunbeam Alpines (and a Tiger and a convertible Rapier) for the last 42 years, restored and rallied them and held most S.A.O.C. Committee posts.

Any leads to suitable boats very welcome too.

[suicide jockey]

If you run through the ads there are at leat 2 moonfleets for sale which run 1600 sunbeam engines. I have seen the one on page 5 and it is very nice.
I am restoring an albatross alpine but not for sale!

If you need any help give me a shout.

steve

[Tatra Man]

That's very kind of you, Steve.

I believe Scandal's Moonfleet Aquila, the one on P5, is the one now owned by Howstar - and Rogersewell's Moonfleet White Satan sold just a few days ago.

Did any other manufacturers use the Sunbeam Alpine marine engine? Are there any guides to sensible prices for these boats in various conditions from restoration project to concours?

I appreciate the desire for as much power as possible but I understand the law of diminishing returns and I have a 1,724cc Series V Sunbeam Alpine, a 1,592cc Series II tuned for rallying and a 4·2 litre Sunbeam Tiger so I would prefer a totally original 1,494cc or 1,592cc unit rather than a replacement 1,724cc unit (even if a Holbay version). Does anyone have details of engine numbers for the marine engines? (I have detaills of all the car engine numbers.) Or any reliable ways to tell a genuine marine unit? (Even the Aquila, a very good looking boat, needs some engine parts changed to return it to original specification.)

[sean-nós]

Here is an albatross that needs a lot of work and an engine.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Albatros-Aluminiu ... 500wt_1154

[Tatra Man]

Sadly, it's a Ford.

[Scandal]

Hi

The moonfleet Aquila which I sold to Howard is a very unusual model as nearly all Aquila's where fitteed with a zephyr six engine. I doubt there is another alpine engined Aquila still in existence.

I believe the Alpine engines where fitted as standard to the White Satan which is a slightly smaller hull. these do come up for sale from time to time and I'm sure if you keep an eye on the forum one will pop up.

It is my understanding that there were no engine numbers stamped on those fitted to the boats as they were normally stamped with numbers on the Alpine assemble line, and these engines never got to the assembly line. Scandal certainly did not have any engine numbers anywhere.

Scandal's engine is 1592cc and came with twin Zenith downdraught carb's which I think made it a Mk11a model engine.

Interestingly, I have a manual for the 'Alpine Inboard Marine Engine' which included an outboard type leg added to a marinised engine.

I wonder if any of those still exist. Perhaps if you come to one of the CMBA Rallies, I can show you the manual.

Good luck with your search for a boat.

Al

[Tatra Man]

Many thanks for the help, Al. It's a shame I didn't know about Roger's White Satan in time.

From what I remember of Sunbeam Alpine production, the "numbers" were allocated to the engines which had loosely attached to them a plate which was to become the car's chassis plate. When they were married to the body shells, which carried a "Body number", the final car had that plate rivetted on and the engine number became the car's "Chassis number" so engine and chassis number matched.

My assumption had been that engine numbers of a different series to the cars would have been given by Rootes to their marine engines but if yours had none then it would appear that my assumption was wrong. (If anyone doesn't know, the engine number would have been stamped on the ledge on the right hand side of the engine just forward of the fuel pump.)

The 1,592cc engine with twin Zeniths was fitted to both Series II and early Series III Sunbeam Alpines and can be identified from the carburettor model and inlet manifold but these may be different on the marine version for various reasons such as less likelihood of them being used at altitude! (The Sunbeam Alpines from which these engines derive are all "Series" Alpines: the "Mark" Alpines were the earlier cars derived from the Sunbeam Talbot 90 and there was no Series IIa Alpine.) The only advert I've ever seen was for the 1,494cc model as fitted to the Series I Sunbeam Alpine (which also had twin Zeniths). That advert also featured the Humber SuperSnipe marine engine and I believe one of those has been found in Belgium.

Obviously I am very interested in the manual you have and would love to either purchase it if you have no further use for it or to scan it. I notice that the Aquila had a '67 or later cylinder head and a '63 or later inlet manifold with either a twin-choke Solex or Weber carb.. Would you still have the original parts by any chance?

Fingers crossed for that good luck! Towing an Alpine engined boat behind my Sunbeam Alpine is something I look forward to.

[suicide jockey]

Am I right in thinking the rootes 1600 engines in the boats were actually sunbeam rapier spec or is that the same as an alpine.

If I were driving an Alpine I would be looking for an Albatross Alpine ....... they align nicely in many respects. Good luck and if I hear of anything I will shout.

PS....... If you find me a nice wooden classic inboard engined boat I might part with the Alpine!!!!!!!!!! Theres a challenge!!!!!

[Tatra Man]

That's something I would like to know myself (which spec. the marine engines were) and if I get a look at the marine engine manual, I can compare and give you a definitive answer. There are differences between the Rapier and Alpine automotive engines which gave the Series II Alpine 5 more BHP at 5,000 rpm than the Series IIIA Rapier at 5,100 rpm. Those were the first two models to use the enlarged 1,592cc engines, the earlier 1,494cc engines were used in the Series I Alpine and the Series III Rapier and were advertised in a marine version too. The carburettors are different, the centrifugal and vacuum advance are the same but I'm unsure about the camshafts. The valve timing is the same but the lift may be different. If the marine engine continued in production after the introduction of the Series III Alpine and the Series IV Rapier then there are further differences. In all of this, I'm assuming that the marine engines weren't low compression versions - again, I really need to see a manual.

As far as towing is concerned, what do the 2-seat Albatross, the 4-seat Albatross and the White Satan weigh? I'm assuming they're lighter than your average caravan and I've towed a Sunbeam Tiger on a trailer behind my Series V Sunbeam Alpine which must've been about 1½ tonnes.

Quick, someone, . . . . . Find Steve a wooden boat!


EDIT:-

Steve, I've just seen an earlier post of yours where you say your engine puts out 80 BHP. The Series II Alpine engine puts out 85·5 BHP gross, 80 BHP net at 5,000 rpm and the Series IIIA Rapier engine puts out 80 BHP gross, 75 BHP net at 5,100 rpm. So I guess it depends whether your figure is gross or net.

[suicide jockey]

As far as towing is concerned, what do the 2-seat Albatross, the 4-seat Albatross and the White Satan weigh? I'm assuming they're lighter than your average caravan and I've towed a Sunbeam Tiger on a trailer behind my Series V Sunbeam Alpine which must've been about 1½ tonnes.



I think my trailer weighs more than the boat!!!!!!!! My mate and I are working on a 2 seater Alby and we lifted it easily with out its engine. Aircraft technology you see!!!!!!!!!